The Difference Between Soundbites And Substance

I just came across this very interesting piece in the NY Daily News, where all the major presidential candidates were asked to put their specific positions on various critical issues "on the record." I thought the answers were very revealing, in terms of seeing which candidates have substantive policies, and which candidates are trying to get by on soundbites and vague rhetoric.  

To get the candidates on the record with specific answers on the critical issues facing our country, New York's Hometown Newspaper laid down the Daily News Candidate Challenge. We posed questions on 12 topics and gave the contenders 500 words to answer...

"This race has so many big issues, and so much need for answers - more than any that I can think of in modern history," said former Gov. Mario Cuomo. "So I think what The Daily News is doing will have real consequences, all of them good."

The questionnaires were sent to all the candidates drawing 4% or more in recent polls. They included Democrats Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Edwards and Bill Richardson, and Republicans Rudy Giuliani, John McCain and Mitt Romney.

So how did they do? Find out more on the flip.

The Daily News writes:

Neither Giuliani, the 107th mayor of the City of New York, nor Romney, former Massachusetts governor, would deign to explain their positions in writing for publication in this, the paper with America's largest metropolitan readership. They were invited to have their views published verbatim at www.nydailynews.com, but they refused. Sen. Hillary Clinton, the Democratic front-runner, also of New York, barely escaped such discourtesy. Only after much cajoling, and almost three weeks after the deadline, did Clinton respond to the Daily News Challenge to the Candidates...

Democrats Barack Obama, John Edwards and Bill Richardson and Republican John McCain responded promptly to our questions. And we thank them for providing information that New Yorkers should find valuable in judging the candidacies. Which is the purpose of this exercise. This presidential race is unprecedented in length, while remaining short on specifics. The campaign's numerous debates have been little more than sound-bite extravaganzas. And that's not good enough.

You can find the full responses by each of the candidates here:
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007 /07/03/2007-07-03_the_daily_news_candida te_challenge__edit.html

First things first, Guiliani and Romney are pathetic. Reading the replies of the candidates who actually bothered to fill out the questionnaire, Barack Obama and John Edwards clearly have the most substantive and thoughtful responses. Bill Richardson's are fine as well. Hillary Clinton's answers, on the other hand, betray a startling lack of specificity and detail. Indeed, a number of them are transparent soundbites that don't even answer the question asked. On whether immigration is a net plus or net drain to the U.S. economy; on whether she would require employers to provide health care insurance to workers; on how to fund Social Security and Medicaid; on whether she would be willing to raise taxes; on how to raise the nation's standing around the world post-Bush Administration--these are all questions that Clinton skirts with fuzzy language, whereas Obama, Edwards, and Richardson all answer with specifics.

Here's a representative example, on Health Care:

Would you require employers to provide health care insurance to workers as a way of achieving universal coverage? If not, how would you reduce the ranks of America's 47 million uninsured?

CLINTON: I have a lot of experience in trying to cover more Americans, and the scars to show for it. Part of why I'm running for President is to ensure every American has health care and that is why on day one of my campaign, I talked about the need for universal health care. And I've offered three principles that will guide our work: cost, quality and coverage. I began by addressing cost because we will only be able to achieve universal health care if we get these costs under control. I laid out specific ideas to lower costs for everyone by using health information technology, by spurring a new focus on prevention, by promoting chronic care management, and by creating a best practices institute that lowers cots by focusing on the most effective procedures, medicines, and protocols. In the coming months I will lay out my proposals to cover every American.

EDWARDS: Yes. Businesses have a responsibility to help keep their workers healthy. I am proud to have proposed a specific plan to guarantee quality affordable health care for every man, woman and child in America by 2012. My plan is based on the principle of shared responsibility: businesses, families, and governments must each do their part to achieve universal health coverage and a better health care system for all of us.

Under my plan, businesses will be required to either cover their employees or help pay their premiums. The government will make insurance affordable through new tax credits and by leading the way toward more cost-effective care. New "Health Care Markets" will give families and businesses purchasing power and a choice of quality plans, including one public plan based on Medicare. Finally, once these steps have been taken, all American residents will be required to take responsibility and get insurance.
Under my plan, everyone in America will have insurance. Families without insurance will get coverage at an affordable price. Families that have insurance today will pay less and get more security and choices. Businesses and other employers will find it cheaper and easier to insure their workers.

OBAMA: Employers continue to play an important role in the provision of health care coverage in this country. As part of my health care plan, employers who do not offer meaningful coverage to their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of their payroll to help offset the cost of helping uninsured Americans obtain coverage. Some small employers will be exempt from this requirement.
As president, I will sign a universal health care plan into law by the end of my first term in office. I will modernize the U.S. health care system to improve quality and reduce costs and increase investment in public health to prepare and protect Americans against emerging health threats and to reduce rates of preventable diseases. Finally, my plan will mandate health insurance coverage for every child in America.

My plan will not just guarantee coverage for every American, it will bring down the cost of health care and reduce a typical family's premium by as much as $2,500 through five important steps.

First, the federal government will pick up the tab for some of the most expensive illnesses and conditions which means premiums will go down. Second, we'll focus our health care system on preventing costly, debilitating conditions in the first place by requiring coverage of evidence-based, preventative care services, and making sure they are paid for. Third, we'll reduce the cost of our health care by improving the quality of our health care. We'll ask hospitals and providers to collect, track, and publicly report measures of health care quality so that patients can make informed choices about the care that's best for them. Fourth, we'll reduce waste and inefficiency by moving from a 20th century health care industry based on pen and paper to a 21st century industry that's paperless, reducing deadly medical errors, shortening the length of hospital stays, ensuring that nurses can spend less time on paperwork and more time with patients, and saving billions and billions of dollars in the process. Finally, he'll break the stranglehold that a few big drug and insurance companies have on the health care market. Under my plan, we'll make generic drugs more available to consumers and we'll tell the drug companies that their days of forcing affordable prescription drugs out of the market are over. And we'll investigate and prosecute the monopolization of the insurance industry.

RICHARDSON: I'm proud of the progress we've made on health care in New Mexico. We made coverage available for every child under the age of five, got junk food out of schools, and increased immunizations. In my state we've worked hard and are proud of the results. But states can't do it alone.

There's no excuse for 47 million people being uninsured in this country, and I have a health care plan to provide health insurance for every American. My plan is different from all the others - no new bureaucracies are created and no new taxes would be necessary. Every employer would be required to pay some portion of employee health insurance, and every individual would be required to get coverage.

If you like your current coverage you can keep it, but I also would allow working families and small businesses to purchase coverage through the same federal plan provided to the President and members of Congress. Americans between 55 and 65 could buy into Medicare, and the federal government would help Americans who can't afford to pay by offering a refundable tax credit based on a sliding income scale.

We must also help Americans by controlling healthcare costs. At least 75 percent of the $2 trillion the nation spends on health care is due to care for chronic diseases, many of which are preventable. For example, our nation spends at least $97 billion per year on illnesses related to obesity, and over $93 billion per year on smoking-related illnesses. Yet we spend less than 5% of our health care budget on prevention.

There are already many proven strategies for preventing and managing illnesses and injuries, but unfortunately these are not reaching enough Americans. By increasing our focus on prevention, we can not only reduce costs but also dramatically improve the overall health of Americans.

Finally, those who fall victim to a costly illness should not have to pay the same outrageous interest rates or take the same hits to their credit reports as people with regular debt. Bill Richardson will fight for passage of a Medical Borrower's Fairness Act to place limits on interest rates that can be charged for medical debt and prevent credit rating agencies from downgrading the credit scores of Americans due to medical debt.

One of these four responses is perfect for a 30-second soundbite in a debate. The other three, while not very good soundbites, actually answer the question and lay out specific policies that are substantive and show that the candidate has serious considered the topic, empty rhetoric about "experience" and "scars" notwithstanding. Can you guess which is which?  

Look, clearly none of the candidates actually wrote their own answers (Bill Richardson actually refers to himself in the third person at one point). All of them got their policy shops to write the responses for them, drawing on existing speeches and statements by the candidates. But what the Daily News Candidate Challenge represents is how seriously each of these campaigns takes policy. And that is something that is truly telling. The NY Daily News is a major newspaper. It sends out questionnaires to all the major presidential candidates. Obama, Edwards, McCain, and Richardson all turn in long, thoughtful, detail-filled answers, and they turn them in promptly. Hillary Clinton turns in the shortest and least comprehensive response--three weeks after the deadline, and after "much cajoling." Romney and Guiliani don't respond at all.

The implications are pretty clear. The Romney and Guiliani campaigns quite obviously have no policy rationale beyond the fact that they want to be President. Obama, Edwards, McCain, and Richardson all have well-developed policies, and they each have a decent narrative arc to their campaign, though some are better than others. Hillary has poorly-developed policies and a poor narrative arc.  

It's not just the NY Daily News Candidate Challenge that shows this contrast between substance vs. soundbites, either. Look at these Issues pages:

CLINTON: http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/
OBAMA: http://origin.barackobama.com/issues/

Obama's Issues section must be at least 10 times longer than Clinton's. This is a joke. Hillary and her campaign are acting like they're incumbents, like they have a proven record of performance, like everyone knows where they stand. But Hillary is not an incumbent, and being the wife of a former President doesn't change that basic fact. Where is Clinton's health care plan? Where is her environmental plan, her energy plan, her plan to combat to poverty, her ethics plan, her foreign policy strategy? Her failure/refusal as a presidential candidate to come up with substantive policies and positions is embarrassing. Hillary is the master of the soundbite. But where's the beef?

The bottom line: Hillary Clinton is self-evidently the least substantive Democratic candidate in this race. Unfortunately, the media doesn't cover the race that way. Clinton gives a good applause line in a debate and all the pundits go wild. But when it comes down to seriously explaining substantive issues, when it comes down to putting your positions out there on the record, Obama, Edwards, and Richardson lead the way--and Clinton is three weeks behind. She might as well have not shown up at all.

This is the difference between soundbites and substance. And we in the blogosphere should be exploiting that difference at every opportunity. Hillary Clinton isn't the most experienced, she doesn't have the best resume, and most especially she isn't the same person as her husband. "I knew Bill Clinton and you, m'am, are no Bill Clinton." These are all false memes created and fanned by the Clinton campaign, who are very good at that kind of thing, as opposed to having real policies. It should be our job in the blogosphere to call both the Clinton campaign and the media on this.

Hey, but at least she's better than Romney and Guiliani...    


Poll
Which candidate has the most substance?
Hillary Clinton
John Edwards
Barack Obama
Bill Richardson
Other

Votes: 28
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Difference (none / 0)

The difference is that Clintons actually had 90s era's achievements to show off. To accuse her of short in substance just cracks me up.

I found Obama's supporters or maybe their candidate's naive belief of attacking your opponents' strength. They even argue that Obama's resume is actually more impressive.

This kind of strategy is bordering on criminally squandering their supporters' money and enthusiasm.

Obama's better strategy is to shift gear to his 'change' theme. I'm not sure whether it will work in the end, but he definitely has a better shot with this theme instead of challenging Hillary's 'experience'.

Hillary is no dumb, she is actually a very detailed policy wonk.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 10:19:53 PM EST

Re: Difference (none / 0)

Hillary is no dumb   I just found that entertaining...

Here is the problem, 2008 doesn't involve a lot of 90's issues, and to the extent it does the conversation surrounding those issues have changed... Hillary gets no free pass on issues, she must lay out proposals for everything - and thus far the have been lackluster.  I cannot believe you would defend her issues page it is sorry when compared to Obama's.   And, for her talking head to constantly go out there and describe Obama as an empty suit with his head in the clouds is flat wrong.

I thank the diarists for writing about the lack of Issues from Clinton I've been showing people the issues pages of her and Obama for week now.


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 10:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Difference (3.00 / 1)

I haven't read any candidate's policy page. Just no interest. Most of those white papers are just a bunch of crap, which can never translate into laws.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:22:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Difference (none / 0)

Yeah but you know where the stand.


by Rt hon McAdder esq KBE on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:55:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Difference (none / 0)

now we know why you support Hillary


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:04:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Difference (none / 0)

An admitted low-information voter!!


by bode78 on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:24:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Difference (3.00 / 1)

well. I don't read pie-in-sky garbage.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:28:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Difference (3.00 / 1)

I'm sorry, but if you look at any canidate's other than Hillary's site you will find specific policy goals - which they will likely push for in their first year in office.  Bush, for example, ran on Faith Based initiatives and no Child Left Behind and they were their first policy goals... They are laying out thir agenda's.


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:50:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Difference (none / 0)

So the only page you are interested in is the one you are reading from?  You can be replaced by voice-synthesis.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 03:51:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Difference (3.00 / 1)

You're probably one of the ones who's always bellowed about Obama's lack of substance.


by dlh77489 on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 07:07:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Difference (none / 0)

This a great diary.

Hillary is very troubling.


by Rt hon McAdder esq KBE on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Difference (none / 0)

that's kind of funny, because i spent much of the 1990s asking (regular) people what the clinton administration had accomplished.  not surprisingly, most people couldn't think of a thing.

at least he hadn't invaded iraq.  oh, wait, she voted for that.

i'm not finding that hillary's claim of experience rings true.  when voters talk about her experience, they invariably talk about her time as first lady and hillarycare.  i don't know that being first lady is experience that qualifies you to be president, and hillarycare was an unmitigated disaster.  the posters that talk about hillary's advantage being a woman is much more reflective of what attracts voters to her.  i've yet to hear anyone say they are attracted by her experience on the streets or in focus groups...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:47:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Difference Between Soundbites And Substanc (3.00 / 1)

This is a very interesting diary - I'm sure I would have never known about these responses if it wasn't for you - so thanks!!


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 10:29:17 PM EST

Re: (none / 0)

Never mind that her health care plan has not been unveiled yet, and is being rolled out in 3 parts.  So, you obviously failed to read the detailed explanation on Part 1 and have already decided that the other 2 parts are not forthcoming anytime soon (rather than the already announced schedule they will be published and discussed at.)  

I can't take seriously a diary that did not research this issue properly.   There is a lot of substance to her campaign, it may just not be what you like to see.  She is more involved in the Immigration issue than any of the other candidates (even Richardson,) her children health benefits and minority rights work is well known, as is her work in terms of a living minimum wage (where she actually has advanced a bill to not just raise the minimum wage, but tie it to inflation (as many states have done already,) so it is raised automatically every year to keep pace and we never have to talk about "raising" it ever again.  

Alas, this looks to be just another diary to bash Hillary with, so it seems a bit tedious to engage in discussion in here.  In other words, it is not earnestly interested in discussing the issues, just aims at creating another "She is soo bad, she is terrible" diary that lacks substance.  Of course, that is merely my personal opinion.


by georgep on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 10:34:36 PM EST

Re: (none / 0)

Part 1 was revealed and revealed that as President she would not offer to cover every American with Health Insurance.  Why would she fail?  Because, if she spreads this crap about second term health care there will never be a Hillary second term.


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 10:55:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

You show that you did not read Part 1 of the health care plan.  Not interested?  


by georgep on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I did actually look at the bullit points format - It didn't mention the Second Term thing, its ok, I wouldn't mention unpalatble parts either


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:03:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

This is pretty damning stuff.  Democrats ought to look at candidates who answer seriously.


by Rt hon McAdder esq KBE on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why Can't She Give ONE DAMNED SPEECH?!! (none / 0)

What's up with this 3-part health plan? Is it so hard to put all in one place?


by horizonr on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:09:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Can't She Give ONE DAMNED SPEECH?!! (none / 0)

There is no need to roll it all out now, 7 months before the first votes are cast.  It is being put together and will come out on a specific schedule.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  It is not like anything can be done about any of the competing plans until January 2009 anyway.  

Release it in the fall when more people are paying attention.  Makes sense to me.  

Now, if they shelve the other 2 parts of the comprehensive health care plan, you may have something.  But, fat chance on that.  We will be able to compare the details of each plan once it has been fully published.  


by georgep on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:19:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Can't She Give ONE DAMNED SPEECH?!! (none / 0)

Can I assume that you will chime in similarly to defend Obama against attacks
that he is not being sufficiently specific, "7 months before the first votes are cast"?


by horizonr on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:41:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Can't She Give ONE DAMNED SPEECH?!! (none / 0)

Sure.  You can't point to a single post in which I have stated that Obama should have a policy about this or that ready to go today.

I am sure the team he has assembled is working on policy rollouts and proposals as we speak, which will then be unveiled in fitting settings for maximum impact.  That is how it is done.  The current lack thereof makes no difference, as it is being worked on, normal in politics.  Clinton will be fleshing out some of her proposals and will be rolling them out at politically expedient times and in appropriate settings.  


by georgep on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 01:00:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Can't She Give ONE DAMNED SPEECH?!! (none / 0)

OMG! A point of agreement! Dare I say, a point of light?


by horizonr on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 02:06:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Can't She Give ONE DAMNED SPEECH?!! (none / 0)

Many of your diaries are of the gratuitous hit-diary variety, and I have also detected a strong touch of the conspiracy bug.  I try to keep things logical and a bit more pragmatic.  I don't see where the light points can converge, unless you start realizing that all politicians will promise things they can't keep, they will forge agreements that will rub you the wrong way, and if you have gotten too enthralled in the personality, will break your heart.  

But, carry on, regardless.  :-)


by georgep on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 02:15:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Can't She Give ONE DAMNED SPEECH?!! (none / 0)

Patronizing, as usual. Alas....


by horizonr on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 02:24:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Well, your opinion on tedious carries considerable weight.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 03:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why is that? (none / 0)

The supposed "expert" on health care issues is rolling out her health care policy in pieces, while both Edwards and Obama have already put their proposals out there.

Putting your policy out there early gives you the longest possible time to sell it. Putting your policy out late gives your opponents the shortest possible time to build up an attack against it.

So it would seem that Edwards and Obama believe the specifics of their Health Care policies are positives for their campaigns, while Hillary believes that the cost containment specifics of her Health Care policies are a lot more attractive for her to run on than the specifics of "increasing access" (or whatever weasel word she is going to use to excuse no proposing Universal Health Care).


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 08:29:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is that? (none / 0)

Time?  Come on.  There will be plenty of time for you to attack Clinton's health care plan with.  You need 10 months for that

Why would you have an issue with when a politician decides to release their plan?  Early releases are done in an attempt to gain traction.  It hasn't worked for Edwards, but don't delude yourself into believing it was done for any other reason.  Fall releases, when more people pay attention, usually make more political sense.  


by georgep on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 10:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is that? (none / 0)

This is supposed "expert" on health care Hillary Clinton that we are talking about ... author of the byzantine HillaryCare proposal which failed miserably.

And she had an opportunity to show what lesson she learned form that, and whether it makes her an appropriate candidate for the '08 election.

If she had used that opportunity to present a plan for Universal Health Care, she would have had something substantial to offset her ongoing support for the de-industrialization of America, just as Richardson's Energy Plan gives him something to offset his ongoing support for the de-industrialization of America.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 11:36:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Soundbites And Substance (none / 0)

Promising to sign a bill that covers every American in four years is not substantive.

It is either pure pandering or it demonstrates a disturbing ignorance of the political and fiscal challenges involved.

None of the cost savings would be in full effect in four years, thus you would be looking at a massive overnight increase in the federal budget.

Any substantive plan has to phase in cost reductions and additional coverage overy a period of time.

Campaign promises are cheap.

BTW, I love how the candidates spend the "increase in taxes on the rich" over and over and over again.


by hwc on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:55:24 PM EST

Re: Soundbites And Substance (none / 0)

yeah, not sure if you realize, but not all bills become active the moment that they're signed.  I love this site because anytime someone tries to present a reasoned argument, there's always some faction ready to jump all over them with BS that doesn't make one bit of difference.  (pricks)


by dlh77489 on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 07:12:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Any promise to reach Universal Health ... (none / 0)

... Care in more than four years is not a promise at all ... the largest Democratic cohort in the Senate is the one just elected, and they come up for re-election in 2012. If the deal is not done before 2012, there is a very clear risk that it never gets done at all.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 08:31:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Blurring the differences (none / 0)

between Democrats is how Hillary will win. Like she said in the first debate about how all democrats have the same ideas on health care. Nice try.

With good diaries and articles like this eventually people are going to question that and take a closer look at what Hillary's selling. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot there.


by okamichan13 on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:03:51 AM EST

Re: Blurring the differences (none / 0)

There is no substantive "there" there.  We are not realistically looking at a super-majority in the Senate or the House, so what are our chances of getting a comprehensive health care system through Congress?  It is a good goal, but in the end we will be getting piecemeal legislation, which, bit by bit, will hopefully achieve most of what a comprehensive plan envisions spread out over time.   We are just not looking at the issue realistically, if we think that a president will just come into office in January 2009 and enact "health care legislation" right away.  It is a bit of utopia because the GOP will vote it down and will only agree to incremental changes that do anything but give us universal health care.  If we get close to the ultimate goal of covering everybody, it will be a long process to achieve, let's not kid ourselves here.  


by georgep on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:28:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blurring the differences (none / 0)

You make incremental change sound like death by a thousand cuts.  If we can't get universal single-payer health care in place at the moment of the reversal of fortune of the GOP, when will we?  Ever?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 04:00:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blurring the differences (none / 0)

No, I don't.  You are obviously misreading.  I see steady improvement, but it will be slow and incremental.  It will be a long process.  We don't have super majorities, so how can it be any other way?  


by georgep on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 10:49:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blurring the differences (3.00 / 1)

Are you in favour of single-payer universal health care?  Well, that's not what we are hearing proposed by any of these candidates.  My concern with all of the health care proposals is they seem designed to clear the hurdle of getting the legislation passed, not to provide a system which would be the best outcome for citizens.  Sure, getting it passed is essential, but the proposal shouldn't be inherently compromised either.

Who knows what kind of majorities we can build in the future?  I fear if we promote health care proposals too cleverly crafted for the legislative battle we will not inspire the support from the electorate to do something of real structural significance.  In some respects I would rather see a more radical proposal fail, sparking debate and perhaps gathering additional support, than a flawed proposal succeed.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 11:08:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blurring the differences (none / 0)

Yes, I am in favor of single-payer.  It is the most efficient health-care system, and the type of system that gives the most bang for the buck.   I am convinced that we will eventually get to a system very similar to what Germany has, not quite "government-owned" like Spain's system, but government controlled and overseen.  But it will take time and incremental steps to achieve it.    


by georgep on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 04:20:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blurring the differences (none / 0)

Well, George, I agree that we need single-payer but I don't think it will ever happen except on the crest of some wave of popular solidarity like a landslide election with a super-majority.  And then we would have to act fast.

Having said that we disagree on that point I am happy to have the discussion with you.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 04:36:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blurring the differences (none / 0)

I think with the ever-spiraling health care costs spinning out of control we probably have no choice but to eventually have the government take over to get costs reigned in.   That may take a long time to achieve however.  It is going to happen incrementally, step by step, in a long, drawn-out process.  We can speed up the process a little by pushing for change towards that ultimate goal, but it won't be a quick "window" implementation on the crest of political change, IMO.   The country at large will eventually come to see government in general as mostly good in their lives and will come to understand that good government has the ability to flex buying-power muscle in many areas, including health care.  Most people see government as wasteful and inefficient, so a takeover of this area would be viewed with a lot of suspicion and opposed by many regular people.   It has first to be shown that good government can work for us and is actually better able to save money, bring costs down.  Unfortunately, we are not there yet, government is eyed by many as not a good entity.   It will take time to implement change towards government-run programs, and it will require more and more people (over time) viewing government overall in a good light, able to compete and actually do better than privately-run entities.    


by georgep on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:58:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blurring the differences (none / 0)

I am basing my assumption on the historical precedent of the New Deal reforms.  They came only as a result of the crisis of the Great Depression.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We don't need a supermajority in the House ... (none / 0)

... or the Senate if we have a strong advocate in the White House who can use the bully pulpit in support of a plan that they ran with ... and won the White House anyway.

Supermajorities are required to force action on a opposing President.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 11:38:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We don't need a supermajority in the House ... (none / 0)

if we have a strong advocate in the White House who can use the bully pulpit in support of a plan that they ran with ... and won the White House anyway.

Which is precisely what Senator Clinton is doing by laying out healthcare as a three-step process.

Obama talks the talk about building concensus. Clinton is walking the walk.

First step: lower costs, something that every man, woman, and child in both parties supports.

Second step: improve quality, something that every man woman, and child in both parties supports.

Third step: extend coverage to be universal. This is the toughie. If you haven't done the first step, the astronomical costs will kill the effort politically. If you haven't done the second step, the perceived quality issues will kill the effort politically. If you haven't noticed, the two attacks that are used to kill health care proposals are that it will bankrupt the country and take away our high quality healthcare.

Hillary is walking the walk by getting corporate CEO's on board. She's really smart in couching health care coverage as a matter of economic competitiveness -- businesses are being crushed by health care costs.


by hwc on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They got corporate CEO's on board the ... (none / 0)

... last time ... that was part of the process of coming up with an excessively complex proposal.

And a substantial part of long term cost containment depends on Universal Health Care. We don't get the full benefit of encouraging preventative care with low out-of-pocket up front costs unless people are in the system ... and we don't get the benefit of reducing cost-shifting from free riders who skip having coverage unless we get rid of free riding.

Just as importantly, actually, seriously, running for Universal Health Care means that there is a bright line, clear benchmark to judge the actual outcome, and that the Congressmen know it. Running on a policy built around weasel words means that "lower cost" and "more access" can be whittled away, with the difference between the actual result and the proposal fudged in the same way that a political campaign front runner tries to blur any real policy differences with the rest of the field.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 01:16:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We don't need a supermajority in the House ... (3.00 / 1)

first of all, this assumes hillary could win a clear mandate.  i don't think she can win the white house (and i don't think it matters who republicans run against her), leet alone a mandate.  secondly, it assumes that she will be a forceful leader in the white house instead of the triangulator that the clinton's have always been.

and i simply don't think she can convince congress, let alone the nation, to follow her on this area.  no matter what she proposes, it will always be tarnished as hillarycare II, easily dismissed and easy to mobilize voters against it.  hillary is the last person you want proposing health care reform because of her earlier debacle.  people don't forget such things...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 06:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Difference (none / 0)

georgep:

You are exactly right.  But who would know better than Hillary what it is actually going to take to achieve healthcare for all?  Obama?  What the heck does Obama know?  He rushed to complete his "plan" because he got harrassed at the Presidential Forum on Healthcare in Las Vegas for having nothing on his website.  I trust everyone has watched the videos from that forum.  Obama was lost and performed badly.  

John Edwards put together his "A to Z" plan right at the start of his campaign and now it's a done deal, even if he wanted to alter or change it.  He can't.  He's stuck with it.

Hillary is at the drawing board.  And she will get it right - or as right as is possible, with careful attention to detail.  Part One: Cost Reduction; Part Two: Improving Quality; Part Three: Universal Coverage.  She was never in a race to be the first to have a final plan. That gives me confidence that she actually knows what the hell she is doing.  


by samueldem on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 01:53:58 AM EST

The fact that a decade and a half after ... (none / 0)

... HillaryCare, it is still a "work in progress" convinces you that she knows what she is doing?

She has been running for President since the start of 2005, at the very least. Why can't she get the details "right", as long as the details are policy driven rather than poll driven, there is not going to be any stunning new developments in the next six months as to the rampant health care cost inflation, thousands dying annually because they are uncovered, and ongoing scandal of people who hold health insurance being told that they have a "no claim" policy which is good for as long as they stay healthy.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 01:21:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fact that a decade and a half after ... (none / 0)

The campaign is 18 months long. One of the keys to an effective campaign is to build the message over time. There's no political benefit in shooting the wad on a health care bullet points just a couple of months into an 18 month campaign.

By breaking the topic into three components, Clinton gets to give THREE major health care speeches, not ONE.

It's like building a house. You don't have all the lumber, sheetrock, and shingles delivered on the first day. You stage the components to come together at the desired target day.

Let's put it this way, I don't think Edwards and Obama would be eager to join Clinton in a health care debate. She would eat them alive.


by hwc on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 03:00:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fact that a decade and a half after ... (none / 0)

i wish i could believe that hillary has a message sequence plan.  i don't.  her message (eg, inevitability) has devolved into sheer organizing (look who's endorsed me today!).  she didn't have a message sequence plan in 2000; i can't say i paid attention to her race in 2006...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 06:33:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course they are eager to debate her on ... (none / 0)

... health care ... at least John Edwards would be, but I reckon Obama would be happy to debate her as well.

She is avoiding debating the key sticking point as long as possible, by avoiding taking a stand on how many people are left out of her system as long as possible.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sat Jul 07, 2007 at 09:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The difference between dead trees and electrons (3.00 / 1)

...would deign to explain their positions in writing for publication in this, the paper with America's largest metropolitan readership. They were invited to have their views published verbatim at www.nydailynews.com...

So, did they publish the candidates' responses in total in the dead tree version of the paper? Or just online? What's the difference in readership between the two?

The high dudgeon of "America's largest metropolitan readership" is a bit too much. It's that "gatekeeper" tone that gets to me.

I'm always amused when the media (print, broadcast, cable) deigns to criticize candidates for being superficial. The irony escapes them, doesn't it?


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 06:04:41 AM EST

Re: The difference between dead trees and electron (none / 0)

This is why I think Obama and Edwards would have a tougher time in the general, naive press handling. They think they can get better press coverage by being open and nice to reporters, but with the press familiarity breeds contempt. There is no "liberal media" out there that would cover Democrats well if only we were more candid.

Republicans have been better at press management, with Bush being a master. He treats the Constitution like toilet paper and the press still kisses his ass.

The Hillary Clinton campaign keeps the press at arms length, and uses the Internet to talk past them, which gives her a lot more control over what the press publishes.


by souvarine on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 10:50:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Substance, Yes. Solutions, Not So Much. (none / 0)

The diarist makes an excellent point. Unfortunately, there's another point that's even more important, which is not addressed: Does all the substance amount to a solution?

The answer, unfortunately, is "no."

In regards to health care, there are 4 basic facts:

(1) We have the most expensive health care system in the world.

(2) We have one of lowest-performing systems among the advanced industrial nations.

(3) We regard health care as a commodity, not a right of citizenship.

(4) We have a system dominated by private insurance, rather than a core government program providing a basic guarantee.

As Physicians for a National Health Program says:

The U.S. spends twice as much as other industrialized nations on health care, $7,129 per capita. Yet our system performs poorly in comparison and still leaves 46 million without health coverage and millions more inadequately covered.

This is because private insurance bureaucracy and paperwork consume one-third (31 percent) of every health care dollar. Streamlining payment though a single nonprofit payer would save more than $350 billion per year, enough to provide comprehensive, high-quality coverage for all Americans.

The logic is simple. In order to change (1) and (2) above, we need to change (3) and (4).  A single-payer system--Medicare for all--is the most simple and straight-forward way of doing this.  The only reason not to do it is the power of entrenched special interests. PERIOD.

In addition to the biggie--that everyone will be covered--there are also four points of consequence to keep in mind:

(1) This does not mean a government-run health care system.  

(2) It does mean a government-financed health care system.

(3) It means enormous savings in administrative efficiency.

(4) It means vastly more individual choice and control, since there need be no restrictions to stay within insurance company or HMO-defined plans.  This directly contradicts the conservative meme that big government inherently squashes individual freedom.


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 10:47:52 AM EST


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